Why Do We Dream? The Science of Dreams

In this episode of Chris and Jen in the Morning, Chris and Jen dive into the science, psychology, and self-care aspect of dreaming. Building off their previous discussion on sleep, they examine how the brain creates vivid internal worlds, processes complex emotions, and integrates daily memories during the REM sleep cycle. They also contrast classic psychological theories from Freud and Jung with modern neuroscience, address why certain people remember their dreams more frequently, and discuss how dreams can foster creative problem-solving while busting popular dream myths.

Three Pivotal Points:

1. The Neuroscience of Dreaming & Emotional Self-Care: During REM sleep, key areas like the visual cortex, limbic system, hippocampus, and amygdala become highly active to process daily emotional experiences, consolidate memories, and clear out mental clutter—all while the logical prefrontal cortex steps offline.
2. Dream Recall & Quality of Sleep: Whether you remember your dreams depends on factors like waking up during REM sleep, overall sleep quality, active attention to dreams, individual imagination/personality traits, and elevated stress levels causing micro-wakeups.
3. Problem Solving & Debunking Myths: Research shows that the unique neural connections made during REM sleep can foster creative insights and problem-solving. The hosts also bust popular myths, clarifying that dreams don't have universal meanings (like teeth falling out), food like cheese doesn't cause weird dreams, and almost everyone dreams even if they don't recall it.

Website - www.chrisandjenitm.com

Email - connect@chrisandjenitm.com   

Voicemail and Text available at 940-278-8129

Merch - https://chris-and-jen-itm.printify.me/

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Intro and Outro Music

‘Vienna Beats’

By Blue Dots Sessions

Licensed under a Attribution Non-Commercial License

Chapters

00:00 Introduction to media storytelling and personal insights

02:07 The significance of character development and show conclusions

04:12 Shifts in perspective and character focus in media

05:57 Realistic portrayals of teenage relationships and maturity

08:06 Personal experiences with sensory processing challenges

10:02 Storms, weather, and their effects on daily life

11:54 Cultural differences in food preparation and preservation

14:15 Music, copyright, and content licensing

16:24 Misunderstandings in relationships and psychological factors

17:42 Gaming management and community interactions

19:58 Managing time and stress in gaming and hobbies

22:01 Food preferences, sensory sensitivities, and cultural practices

24:01 Humor, language, and cultural nuances in conversations

26:06 Personal health stories and medical insights

28:03 Childhood experiences and sensory sensitivities

29:58 Relationship dynamics and personal growth

31:58 Childhood memories and cultural differences in food

34:07 Travel experiences and cultural observations

36:04 Dreams, aspirations, and personal reflections

37:56 Humor, language, and cultural misunderstandings

41:59 Music, childhood memories, and personal anecdotes

44:05 Internet culture, content creation, and personal stories

46:07 Food preferences, cultural differences, and sensory sensitivities

48:06 Food preservation, jams, and cultural practices

50:00 Cultural differences in food and culinary traditions

51:57 Historical and cultural insights into marmalade and food

54:00 Travel, food, and cultural experiences

55:57 Closing thoughts and upcoming topics

02:28 What is happening in our brains during dreaming

07:02 The role of REM sleep and brain activity

11:54 Psychological perspectives: Freud and Jung on dreams

17:42 The neuroscience of memory and emotion in dreams

23:07 Why some people remember dreams and others don't

28:03 Common myths about dreams and their meanings

33:00 How dreams can help solve problems and inspire creativity

37:56 Nightmares, stress, and emotional processing during sleep

42:49 Practical tips for understanding and recording your dreams

48:06 Closing thoughts and community engagement

 resources

Frederick Kekulé's Benzene Dream - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kekul%C3%A9

Carl Jung - Dream Analysis - https://www.cgjungpage.org/learn-jungian-psychology/dreams

Freud's The Interpretation of Dreams - https://www.amazon.com/Interpretation-Dreams-Sigmund-Freud/dp/0465019774

Sleep Cycle App - https://sleepcycle.com/

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Every single night, your brain enters an invisible internal movie studio, creating entire worlds, bending the laws of physics, and running overnight therapy sessions while you sleep. But why would evolution allow us to spend nearly two hours a night practically hallucinating?

SPEAKER_02 0:20

We probably looked for dreams to be interpreted or predict a future for us. We looked into the meaning of them, but it's probably more accurate to say that our dreams help our brain understand our past or our present feelings, and it's a way to really sort through all of the things that are going through our life and running through our brains consistently.

SPEAKER_01 0:42

Today, Chris and Jen explore the fascinating neuroscience and psychology of dreaming. They dive into what happens in the brain during REM sleep, unpack why dreams act as emotional self-care, investigate why some people remember vivid dreams while others recall nothing. And they bust some common dream myths. Let's get into it. Welcome to Chris and Jen in the morning, where self-care meets real life.

SPEAKER_02 1:10

I'm Chris.

SPEAKER_00 1:12

And I'm Jen.

SPEAKER_02 1:13

And we are back with another episode. Well, not an it is another episode, but like we're gonna build off of Yeah, it is another episode. We're going to build off of the conversation we had last week. We talked about sleep and like why our brains need it and kind of what's happening.

SPEAKER_00 1:31

How sleep is a part of self-care. So if you haven't listened to it, you should probably go check it out because we all need sleep to care for ourselves.

SPEAKER_02 1:40

Exactly. Um, but so this like based on what we were talking about last week, it kind of like dreams came up and dream analysis and you know, all of that kind of stuff. So we're not gonna really we're gonna talk about dreams and what is happening in our brains while we're dreaming.

SPEAKER_00 1:58

I mean, you're fascinated by my recounting of dreams. Um ever since childhood, like all through childhood, my dreams, I could always remember them very vividly. And uh I think it fascinates you. So we'll talk about it.

SPEAKER_02 2:14

It fascinates me, it fascinates Ace. Like it fascinates a lot of people. Let's be clear. Like it's not just me. Because it the the number one, how how frequently you can remember them, and then like the detail at which you can remember them, like is is fascinating. So yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:30

So we'll talk about dreams and they're you know, from a psych psychological standpoint, like what are the the uh main kind of thoughts around why we dream, what it means. We'll talk about what's happening in the brain, um, and how like dream is dreaming is really like a part of your self-care routine, um, like that that autopilot caring for self. Um and then we'll talk a little bit about uh, you know, why some people remember dreams and other people don't. So super excited to to dive into it.

SPEAKER_02 3:07

Yes. So um if you enjoy topics like these and you enjoy learning a little bit more about self-care and what the neuroscience of of why we show up and do and act the way that we do, um, come join our community. That's what we're here for. It's why we started this podcast and we would love for you to join the conversation. Um, you can subscribe to the podcast uh on any podcast, your favorite podcast platform. That will make sure you get notifications whenever we release a new episode. And then you can also follow us on Facebook, Instagram, and YouTube where we are um putting out content, uh a little bit more behind the scenes type things.

SPEAKER_00 3:47

Yeah, if you want the full, the full experience, we our video um podcast is on now Apple, Spotify, and uh YouTube. So if you just want to follow along with all of the wild facial expressions.

SPEAKER_02 4:07

Yep. Like, follow, and subscribe.

SPEAKER_00 4:11

Like, follow, and subscribe. Um so let's walk into gratitude moment and I can kick us off just um shocked. You're shocked. Um, I'll say, you know, this week what I'm really thinking about is how grateful I am to, as a mom, uh, get to live in proximity to my kid and be able to hang out with them. Um we went and had lunch yesterday and then went to this little mini mall um like thrifted goods shop. And um, like it was hot in there, but it was just like a blast to go walk through and look at like all of the many variety of things there are to see. And I thought for a moment, like some of this just is really cool. And it like some of this looks like things that are in my house. And um, and I was like, this stuff is so neat. And Ace said, Yes, and if you buy all of it, this is what your house is gonna look like. So, but it was still fun to look at and um and it was fun to like to you know get to experience that with our kiddo and and their significant other and like go look at all the cool stuff. And um, I even was sending you and Frank uh little things that I was finding going, is this cool or is this not cool? So um that was a ton of fun. And I'm just I'm grateful for the opportunity to get to experience that. Um, I know that, you know, as a mom with a kid who is an adult, um, it's it's a gift to get to live close to them and spend time with them. So blessings. Mm-hmm. That's right.

SPEAKER_02 6:00

What about you? Um, so my gratitude moment, um, it's gonna I think be a little bit meta, but stick with me. My gratitude moment this week is um for seeing all the reminders that I have this week about the importance of gratitude. So I feel like in the world that we currently live in, it's a lot of conversation around things that are tough, things that are hard, experiences that we're unhappy with, and not having the optimal experience when we go someplace. Um, but I've seen a lot of content this week that's reminding us that like even those not so great experiences, some people wish, want, and desire those moments. Um, so yeah, work may be tough, but at least you have a job. Um, you know, you may have some housing things, you know, a a leaky pipe or you know, hot water or no AC, but at least you have a roof over your head.

SPEAKER_00 7:00

Yes. And and I might even like I might even suggest sometimes I think, okay, well, it's valid that I'm frustrated by this leaky pipe, but also I am both frustrated and grateful that I don't have to deal with the challenges of being unhoused.

SPEAKER_02 7:17

Correct. So I think like to me, I appreciate seeing those things. And it's just like been randomly throughout the week as like I've scrolled through social media and things like that. Like it's these small moments that aren't saying like aren't shaming people for for having those thoughts and feelings, but it's acknowledging that there are other, there's another side to this that like you can find gratitude in. Um, and so I've just appreciated seeing those things because it can, you know, some some weeks can be harder than others.

SPEAKER_00 7:48

So I love that. And and I think that is a huge part of why we practice gratitude and and we brought that into our podcast every week, is because um we know that there are plenty of things that can get us down. Uh, and sometimes it takes work to remind ourselves of the things that can bring us back up. Um so as my therapist would say, happiness lives within you. You have the ability to create it. And I'm I'm like, I hate it when you say that because then I feel guilty for, you know, like I'm at fault for for um being unhappy. And he's like, Well, that's not what I'm trying to say. And I'm like, Well, that is what I'm hearing.

SPEAKER_02 8:26

I can just imagine how that conversation goes between the two of you.

SPEAKER_00 8:30

Yeah. He he did stop saying it after I said that. At least to me. He heard your feedback. Um, but you know, I I think in the spirit of what he was trying to convey is that um, you know, we we do it, we have, we are empowered um to be able to pull ourselves uh back in a different direction if we if we so choose. Um like we have that capability. It's we're not reliant. Here's better words. We are not at the mercy of life, something inanimate, or somebody else to um pull us back that we can learn and build the the skills needed to pull ourselves back. And I will say gratitude space.

SPEAKER_02 9:22

Like since we've been doing this, like we've added gratitude moments to our podcast. Like whenever I am in places where I feel um uneasy, upset, frustrated, um for some reason I'm thinking back to those. Like they're mainly whenever there's large groups of people around.

SPEAKER_00 9:38

Oh it's so interesting.

SPEAKER_02 9:41

Um, but then I go, I start to say, okay, well, what are we grateful for? And so then I start going through it and it's it is b it both helps like um better ground me in the moment that I'm in, but it also kind of reminds me that, you know, the world around us is um is ever present and there is goodness around us. We just have to be willing to see it.

SPEAKER_00 10:07

Yeah. I think the other really important thing that I just would be remiss if I didn't say is it's not about looking at it from the lens of self-judgment or self-incrimination to say, well, I don't feel grateful right now, so I'm failing, which is absolutely what I was hearing. Um but it's you gotta let go of the self-judgment and just say, like, yes, factually I am sad right now, and that's okay. It's actually important to feel those feelings. Um, but also when I'm done being sad, here's how I can get myself to a different place.

SPEAKER_02 10:41

Yeah. So my gratitude moment this week is gratitude.

SPEAKER_00 10:46

I love that. Very meta. That's so meta of you.

SPEAKER_02 10:49

I know, right, right. Okay, well, so let's start talking about dreaming. So every night our brains can create an entire world, right? Like we we get in our comfortable spot, and I say that because you know, some people like to fall asleep on the bed, some on the couch, whatever, no judgment. Um, but then our our brain starts to invent these worlds, people, places, conversations, and it really can like bend the laws of physics, right? Because like our dreams generally can be a little out there. They're not always, they don't always follow the rules of our waking world. So we could be flying one moment and then the next be back in high school, which OMG. Um and and while you're dreaming, none of this seems weird. Like that's the thing. Like we stay asleep through it all. It doesn't seem weird. And so really the question becomes why would evolution allow us to spend almost two hours every night practically hallucinating?

SPEAKER_00 11:48

I mean, I would contend that I might spend more than two hours every night, just given the amount of content I wake up with every day. Um if only I could craft it into some like story for others to experience, uh, maybe one day, but uh, you know, the question is like are dreams actually trying to tell us something? Are they just these like random like things that float around inside of your brain? Is it helping us process f emotions? Do they like hold hidden symbols of you know, things that will unlock, you know, the um success of personal growth? Like, um, are we just visiting alternate timelines? I mean, I'm just saying we can't rule that out.

SPEAKER_02 12:37

So I mean, you did you did bring that up last week. I mean I did. Kind of bet my mind a little.

SPEAKER_00 12:42

I did. I mean, you can't rule it out. I'm just saying. Uh, you know, sometimes I wake up and I go, there's no way my mind concocted that. Like, um, but you know, we are like experiencing so many different things. There was an episode where we talked about, um, I remember, I can't remember the facts. Um, I should have pulled this up, but we talked about how many um thoughts you process. And it's like more like we process thoughts at a speed that is greater than a NASCAR um race car driver driving around a track at top speed. Like our brains just produce m way more thoughts than we can be consciously aware of, and those like have to go somewhere. So um, you know, dreaming is a way to process that is is my very strong belief and what I think science points us towards.

SPEAKER_02 13:39

It really does. So let's let's dive into a little bit of this. So why do we dream? If sleep is supposed to be, as we talked about last week, it's supposed to restore our brains, it's like the cleaning crew clocking in to to clean and and and you know, help help us be better people, then why doesn't our brain like truly shut off in the way that we think of like turning off a light switch? Right.

SPEAKER_00 14:03

Well, yeah, sometimes I wake up from my dreams and I feel tired. Um, like because that was a lot. Um, and so what is happening here? And so as we talked about last week, um, dreams mostly just happen in a certain portion of sleep. So there's like three main segments to sleep. Um, and and just one of them, the REM sleep state, is where dreams happen. And um, it's that distinct active sleep phase where like your brain activity, your brain waves speed up. Um, it looks really similar to when you're awake, but your muscles, um, like the part of your brain that controls your muscle movement gets disengaged. It's like turned off. Um, and so that's why you're temporarily paralyzed. Otherwise, you're like acting out your dreams. Um, but REM sleep happens often uh like before you wake. And so if you do start to wake a little bit, that's where you see like some of the movement happening within sleep. It's like you're sitting just below that level of consciousness. Um you have physiological changes that happen in your breathing, your blood pressure, your heart rate, they all increase compared to your non-rem REM sleep. That's how they know that you're in this REM sleep period. REM standing for rapid eye movement, which is what's happening behind your eyelids while your eyes are closed. It's really cool that we know all of this stuff. I'm like, I want to go be studied.

SPEAKER_02 15:35

Where do I sign up? Well, I think another very interesting thing, which you know Not by the aliens, to be clear. Okay. We we'll put that as like the asterisk at the bottom of the application.

SPEAKER_00 15:49

Yeah. Okay. Uh voluntarily um studied in a way that I'm participating cooperatively.

SPEAKER_02 15:59

Um the thing about dreams is it happens in every culture. So as they have studied sleep and um, you know, through through all time, it's like uh everyone dreams. It it is a thing. We people may think that they don't, but um we all dream.

SPEAKER_00 16:17

Um and you know, what is interesting though is that um the kinds of dreams that you have may tend to vary from culture to culture.

SPEAKER_02 16:27

Correct. And we'll we'll talk a little bit about that. And I mean, it can also be based on I mean, there's so many different things. Like it can be based on your age, it can be based on what you're going through in life. There's just so much that um because it's your brain processing things.

SPEAKER_00 16:42

Yeah, yeah. Um, so let's talk about the neuroscience behind it. What's going on like with the different parts of your brain? Um, what we what we know, what we talk about a lot, is that your brain is made up of many different like centers that are used for many different purposes. And so um the visual cortex within your brain, that's the region of the cerebral cortex that is in the occipital lobe. Umcipital, like ocular, like eyes, uh it receives and processes visual information while we're awake. So what's wild is that during REM sleep, your brain basically stops paying attention to the outside world and it starts looking inward. And that part of your brain that creates images, even though your eyes are closed, it lights up. Um and so that's really interesting because it's almost like this internal movie studio that's happening, and that's why dreams can feel so vivid, even though we're not actually taking in anything visually.

SPEAKER_02 17:49

Yeah. And I think this is um I think understanding the neuroscience of all of this is super interesting because again, we talk we've talked a lot about how our brains just do things um from an instinctual standpoint. It's not like anything we have to actively process or do. And I think as as we were prepping for this episode, like really seeing what our brains are doing uh whenever we are truly like unconscious and uh like things still happen. So like in the limbic system, which is often referred to as like our emotional brain, which you know re regulates our basic emotions like fear and pleasure, um, but it also um is part of our memories and it helps us be um like our drive and our motivation, but it's also the place where we find like that homeostasis, like where are we most comfortable and how do we like what is our our normal, in quotes, if you will.

SPEAKER_00 18:45

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 18:46

Well, during REM sleep, that part of our brain is actually very active, processing the daily emotional experiences that we had, and it's working on consolidating memories and it's taking those um uh those all of the things through the day, and it's just starting to like process, consolidate, move them around. And in the process of doing that, they believe like this is this is part of why dreams are generated, because we are starting to process.

SPEAKER_00 19:15

Just like file through that backlog of papers that's stacked up on the desk during the day.

SPEAKER_02 19:19

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 19:21

Yeah, and um, it's not like an organized th stack of papers um or things that you knew were there, but you didn't like actively think about. So some of it may seem new or novel, but um, you know, it might relate back to something that you perceived with one of your senses, but sort of not at the top of consciousness because we're perceiving so many things all at once.

SPEAKER_03 19:42

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 19:43

Um, and it doesn't just happen within that same day. It can be something hanging around unresolved from your past. It could be something unresolved from your past that you experienced something um in the present that was a callback to that and it remained unprocessed. That's really interesting as well. Um, but I, you know, I have to say, like, it's interesting that it's that emotional and then that visual part. So it takes how your like the the feelings and it turns them into visual movies. Correct. Um, and then your hippocampus, that's what converts your short-term memories into long-term memories, and it provides that spatial navigation within your uh like a memory filing system. It's like your internal GPS. Um, and so during REM sleep, that is dominated by um these theta waves, which are between four and seven hertz, and it organizes and synchronizes your neural firing to support that memory processing. So it you see similar wave patterns during the wakeful um learning period. So it's like your brain is like um when you're learning, your brain is figuring out where do I file this information? Should this be filed in the long term? Should it be filed in the short term center? And then like, what am I filing it under? Um, and so that is like what is activated and happening during your dream period. It's like they can see that it is filing these little pieces of information away, either in like or throwing them out, like we talked about the taking out the garbage too, right? What am I keeping? What am I not keeping? And for the stuff that I'm keeping, where am I putting it? Um, for some of us, it's it's a surprise to know that subconsciously my brain can do that because I struggle to do it consciously.

SPEAKER_02 21:35

Well, I think like that's one of the fascinating things about this stuff is like we like we talk about learning basic arithmetic, this stuff, like I can fairly remember the rules and and navigate that stuff. But the more complicated things, I'm like, well, I my brain apparently has let those things go. So it's just it's interesting to me that like it's it wasn't a conscious decision for like the Things you're able to recall and pull up and whatever. But then, like, if you have a little bit of like a reminder or something that kind of like sparks that um memory, it's like that file just pulls up so quickly and you're like, oh yeah, you have to do blah, blah, blah, blah. And it's like, well, wow, I didn't even know I still had that in me.

SPEAKER_00 22:15

Well, yeah. What did I just cramming to remember this is the short term for a test? Or did I learn this in a way that filed it into my long-term like storage? Um so then the other part of your brain that's uh that's engaged here while you're sleeping um is the amygdala, right?

SPEAKER_02 22:32

We talked about all amygdala.

SPEAKER_00 22:34

Talk a lot about that guy. Um, the particular part of your brain that's responsible for this emotional processing. Um, so uh the the limbic system is like referred to as that emotional brain regulating your basic emotions um and and other things. The amygdala is like that threat detection. Um, it also is memory consolidation and it is storing your memories to help. We've talked a lot about um, you know, the the human brain just does not like uncertainty. So it likes to predict. And the amygdala is there sort of predicting what's going to happen next. And so as it's going through all of these things that you've experienced, it's it's trying to process like, is this something I need to know to keep me safe or not? Um, so during your REM sleep, it shows this heightened metabolic activity activity while you're experiencing vivid dreams. Um and so low stress chemicals are flooding the brain, allowing your brain to uncouple your memories from their visc, the these like visceral emotional swings that you would normally have when you're awake. Um and, you know, sometimes um when you are like having nightmares, your amygdala is more present, but oftentimes in your dream, it's your limbic system that's that's like gaining more of that emotional processing than your amygdala is.

SPEAKER_02 24:05

Well, and I think it's one of those things that um that part of our brain kind of has to disconnect a little bit to be able to allow that processing to happen, right? Because that's the that's the fight or flight mechanism within us. And if we imagine like if all night that was as active as what it was when we were awake, it would be there are absolutely periods in my life where that has absolutely been what it feels like.

SPEAKER_00 24:28

If you wake up feeling like, oh my gosh, I've just been running all night long from from things, it's because like your your um the chemical, the stress response chemicals that like engage the amygdala to help you, um, maybe like a little too, you know, heightened. And so even while you're asleep, your body isn't allowing the amygdala to disconnect enough for you to like have rest without feeling like you have to protect yourself.

SPEAKER_02 25:01

It's interesting. Think of think of your dreams as like nightly overnight therapy sessions that are allowing you to truly process yesterday's emotions so we're a little more prepared for what tomorrow may bring. And that may, I think for me, the surprising thing is we call it rest. Like we are like sleeping is resting and allowing our bodies and our minds to heal, but really it's like there's so much more happening within us. Like that stuff is happening, but our brain is also reorganizing.

SPEAKER_00 25:32

The cleaning crew is coming in and spiffing it all up. It's those magical elves that I wish would appear like in my office overnight. Um, so so um we talked about like what's going on in your brain. I think it we would be remiss to talk about what's not going on. Like what is the part of your brain that's sort of more silent? And while the amygdala is more detached, um, your prefrontal cortex is like way less active when you are sleeping. And that's a part of your brain that is like responsible for your logical critical thinking skills, your logical thoughts, um, that like reality uh that we're tied to, um, the planning section. So, you know, when you dream and like I've said this before, like as I'm recounting a dream, I'm like, oh, well, you know, this person was doing this, but then all of a sudden, you know, that it was somebody else, um, is another person. And but, you know, that that made total sense apparently in my dream because I wasn't surprised by it. Um, was because that part of your brain that would notice those things and go, well, that's not logical. Um, it's it's it's offline.

SPEAKER_02 26:42

Right. It's also like why we think like why people dream like their pets are talking to them or we're flying, or like all of that stuff.

SPEAKER_00 26:49

People are in the wrong places and all of that. And so what's really interesting to me about this is um it doesn't necessarily mean um anything. It's just you have all of these like disorganized things that you've experienced either in present day or that we were recalled because of something in present day. Um and it your brain's just kind of like filtering through all of those little things. And so um it's it's like they're all squished together into the same processing experience. And so sometimes like the I think of it like a smoothie in a blender.

SPEAKER_03 27:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:34

It gets all these ingredients put in it, and sometimes it comes out kind of weird.

SPEAKER_02 27:39

Yeah. And so I do think like this is like where it's important of like why we this was very neuroscience heavy at the at the front part, because I think you have to understand all of what's happening so that whenever we start to understand like why these things start to come together. Um, so ironically, all these things that we've talked about, it's how the different parts of our brain are communicating during REM sleep. Because although we we may be asleep and offline, our brain is not. It is, it is during dream that our brain is not replaying memories like watching a movie, but it's processing the information as like our unconscious can process.

SPEAKER_00 28:23

Yeah. I I think well, the other thing I found really interesting to think about is as somebody who is um not always super connected. I do have emotions and I express them, but I'm not always super connected to my emotions. Um, and that's something I've been working on. Um, but the brain is drawing more on your emotional processing portions or, you know, of your mind when you're sleeping and uh and you're dreaming. And um, so it's not really about the facts. Like I try to understand what it what are the facts? What does my brain like mean? And I'm trying to approach it from this like critical thinking standpoint, but that's like trying to answer feelings with logic, um, which doesn't, doesn't like match. You need to respond um to to emotion with emotion and to logic with logic. And um, and so if you start to think about your dreams, my take, if you start to think about your dreams more from an emotional context versus a logical context, then you might start to understand what are those things that you're really like sifting through while you're sleeping? What are the things that were um needed more airtime? And what can that tell you about yourself? But I think that um maybe while you're dreaming, your dreams can tell you more about how you're feeling than what you're thinking.

SPEAKER_02 29:46

Yeah. So you talked a little bit earlier about the hippocampus and like it's actually replaying recent experiences, but it doesn't replay them perfectly. So research is actually suggesting that it's reactivating like fragments of the memory, which is likely like, as you were talking about, that emotional and that a lot that logic perspective. Um, and it how does that integrate into our long-term memory? So your dream, it as much as we say it's like, you know, it's not really a recording being reflected on. Think of it more like um your brain is laying a puzzle piece on a table of like the grand piece of of the puzzle that you are. Um, you're navigating life through. Um, and so it's like the pictures of life all coming together. Um, I love the example that you used as a blender because like that's why those childhood memories, people from your past, like all of that stuff gets in there. And that's why in a dream, people who were never even in the same spots, like are now all of a sudden meeting in your dreams, and you're like, Wait, what are you two doing here?

SPEAKER_00 30:55

Yeah. It's like your childhood memories, yesterday's meetings, the favorite movie that you've watched, um, what your your anxiety and fears um and your grocery list are all combined. You shake them up together, you hit the the button to spin, uh, you know, use them in a mad libs, and then you read the mad libs, and that's why mad libs don't make sense. Um so um uh But that's actually the cerebral cortex.

SPEAKER_02 31:22

Like that's that's where it's getting involved because its job in our waking world is to look for those patterns because again, it it you know, our brains don't like randomness. So it's constantly asking, you know, how do these things connect? So whenever we've had a dream where all of these things were there, our brain is very confused because like w w what, when, how that's really um that's really interesting.

SPEAKER_00 31:47

It's like trying to make up a coherent story from all of these things you experienced that really aren't supposed to be together.

SPEAKER_02 31:54

Correct. But like how you kind of talked about a little bit around like the that filing experience and the papers aren't always in the correct order. And like you're trying to process things. So maybe your subconscious is connecting it to things um from your past that like maybe then you didn't have like that wherewithal um to say, like, this is what I was thinking, feeling, experiencing, but your brain in its more reflective state is actually coupling those things together. Could be.

SPEAKER_00 32:25

That's interesting. So, what about the psychology uh behind dreams? Like what you know, that Freud is often referred to. Um, Carl Jung is another that's referred to. And this is interesting because this is something I've had um some conversation about more in depth recently. Um, we know that Freud is um like famous for connecting everything in a dream to a symbol. And so he would say that everything you're dreaming is a symbol of something else. Um, he believed that um if you were dreaming about, you know, going to work without pants on, it's um it's not about laundry at all. It's it's about um like anxiety about a project at work or um being caught um looking foolish or unprepared. Um and so, you know, then that becomes very complicated to think that everything represents a symbol. Um, but he he was very much in the lens of everything represents a symbol. And so if you take the true um Freudian approach um solely and look to analyze dreams, um, you get like all of these sort of hidden secrets we keep from ourselves that have to be puzzled out to understand them, um, which I mean, in all honesty, can feel a little bit like you're driving yourself kind of crazy because you're trying to invent meaning where, like we talked about from the neuroscience approach, the there may be meaning to some of it and there may not be meaning to other parts of it. But your your logic portion of your brain where things make sense and is connecting everything to a symbol is not really it's not really there.

SPEAKER_02 34:14

Well, this is also like I think you have to understand like also his um psychological perspective on life because he believed that human behavior is actually driven by our unconscious mind, filled with repressed memories, fears, yeah, primitive desires. Like his belief was more like the things that happen to us in life are truly like embedded, and then as we are moving through the different stages of our life, it's us kind of like unpacking those and trying to um resolve these psychological distresses that we're going through. And so uh I I think it's an interesting perspective, and I do believe that there may be some some truth in there, um, but there's actually very little scientific support that actually says um that this way of connecting dreams to processing our past are are like there's legitimacy there.

SPEAKER_00 35:06

Well, I think there's like, um, if you take like portions of it, like you were saying, I think there's like strong connection there. So, like for me, I know that um there are times where I'm really um stressed about something in my waking life that I am aware of. And what I dream, I can see how my dreams, like I can make that very clear connection to, yeah, like I am stressed about feeling unprepared or, you know, um insecure or, you know, these things, and I can see how that's showing up in my dreams. Um, but I think, you know, in its, in its like full um sort of uh what's that called? Um when something is like a part of the canon in its full canon, um, the Freudian way of kind of looking at things, I think clashes with what we know about which regions of the brain are actually tactive. Um and so, but I but I wouldn't discount the entire Freudian approach to dreams because you know, sometimes we do it's more of that emotional part of your brain that's processing and it can like use things um in ways that don't make logical sense, but that if you try to understand it emotionally, you can. And I think that's where I get like what I take away from his um opinions about uh and and beliefs about symbols coming up in dreams is it's not logically connected, it's more emotionally connected.

SPEAKER_02 36:36

Yeah. Which I do think like Carl Jung, um, like he believed that dreams help you become more whole. So the the different dream um characters that are represented are actually different parts of yourself.

SPEAKER_03 36:52

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 36:52

Um, and so that you are everything in your dream, which I mean, if you think about it, like if your brain is the thing that's processing and you're you're you know going through the filing system and you know it's your life, you're the main character. So if you walk into a room that's dirty, that that dirtiness is actually some you are seeing part of yourself in that dirtiness or the messiness or unorganizedness.

SPEAKER_00 37:16

Yes, Zhang would say, um, if you keep walking into a room that's dirty, that you believe that you are dirty or part of you is dirty. And so why do you think that? Um and and so there's that's an interesting perspective too. And when you take that in the context of like your brain is processing emotional things, you might just have to ask yourself, like, what how do I feel about this instead of what do I think about this? And um see if that feels like true for you or if it doesn't. I think though, what I would say is my opinion is that instead of trying to take the Freudian approach or Zhang's approach and um use that to inform yourself about what you are thinking, you might just go, what am I thinking? And would it make more sense if I put it through this lens? And if not, then that's probably not right. Um, but I also think like it's like you said, it's your brain that's doing all of this. And so um it like it should feel at some point familiar or connected where you can go, oh yeah, I okay, I better understand what I'm struggling with or what I'm trying to tell myself. Or um, you know, and I also think I I don't spend a ton of time thinking about all those dreams that I have that don't actually have like leave me with a very strong feeling or have um like a a recurring uh strong theme because it could just be processing things.

SPEAKER_02 38:48

I mean so that that's what I was gonna say here is like how human is it of us to want to attach a deeper meaning to something that like I mean, these two men like built careers around understanding the human experience and now it's like being tied into like our dreaming states, and it's like although different perspectives you know, not super close aligned, but still within each other's like area. Yeah. Um, but it's like such the human condition to want to want to explain something.

SPEAKER_00 39:22

To want to explain it all. Well, certainly I have felt this longing to understand like what do my dreams mean? What am I thinking? And maybe that's like thinking that they're supposed to mean things. But I mean, even as a kid, I had these um very intense dreams all of the time. And I woke up kind of exhausted from them. And so, you know, you want to know like what does this mean so you can put it to rest. And so I think um there is some validity to that. I think it's just not, you know, the fact that, you know, I had this very strong dream that my husband um, you know, went and bought a new lawnmower and like was so mad at him for buying the lawnmower is like we really don't have a fight about the lawnmower. I'm not mad about the lawnmower. Like, I don't, you know, um why was the lawnmower in my dream?

SPEAKER_02 40:14

But I do think like the interest whenever you put this through like a lens of like net more modern neuroscience, right? Like back when those two gentlemen were alive, the the uh tools and resources available were not nearly where they are today. And so really what research is beginning to suggest is that dreams actually appear to help us process our emotions, um, really integrate those memories into like our capability of understanding how we navigate um the world. It's uh um solving problems, I think is a big one that is super interesting. That um uh we'll get to that in a couple of minutes, but it's also like reducing the emotional intensity of things because we are beginning to allow those emotions to process through us. So I think in the past we probably looked for dreams to be interpreted or predict um a future for us. Um, and so we looked into the meaning of them, but it's probably more accurate to say that our dreams help our brain understand our past um or our present feelings, and it's a way to really sort through all of the things that are going through our life and running through our brains consistently and and the things that we see, feel, hear, taste, whether it's a big thing, a small thing, and it's just sorting all of that stuff out into like the proper memory storage or cleaning them out to save space for other things that are gonna be coming our way.

SPEAKER_00 41:45

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, there just is so much that we um have the ability to perceive as we live our lives, and especially as we live longer lives, you experience even more. Like you gotta clear some of that stuff out that's just you know, every one, every once in a several years I have to go through my filing cabinets and clean them out because there's just no more space in my office at home.

SPEAKER_02 42:11

You have filing cabinets?

SPEAKER_00 42:13

They're just yes.

SPEAKER_02 42:17

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 42:18

I cover them in this cute little contact paper and they're they're they're cute.

SPEAKER_02 42:23

So it's like a decoration. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 42:28

You don't have filing cabinet?

SPEAKER_02 42:30

No, I have like a file box. Oh, I really don't like keeping paper in it.

SPEAKER_00 42:34

I also have a few, a couple box I have some boxes too. I do have that of unfiled stuff. There's like a box of just throw all the We digress. We digress. I went through, I was like, oh, you're only supposed to keep your taxes for like seven years. I have this stuff from you know, back like when we were in college, and then I get distracted by reading it all and going, Oh my gosh, we only made like, I don't know, six thousand dollars while we were in the college.

SPEAKER_03 43:00

How do we survive?

SPEAKER_00 43:01

How do we survive? And then I'm like googling the like uh inflation and you know, yeah. Um, then that and the you know, eight hours later I'm sitting on the floor with having gotten rid of nothing.

SPEAKER_02 43:15

Cause now they're memories. It's the f it's the physical manifestation of what is happening while you're asleep.

SPEAKER_00 43:24

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, it you know, it's the it's the this is where I'm shocked that I have like some ability in my dreams to like through my dreams to do this filing because I feel like that should carry into like Can we bring this skill into my awake life? My awake life.

SPEAKER_02 43:45

Okay, so here's a big question, and I think one that's super interesting. Um, why do some people remember their dreams? So This is a great question.

SPEAKER_00 43:54

Why do I remember my dreams so heavily when you don't?

SPEAKER_02 43:57

Right. And I think the Thing that is fascinating to me is I you and I have stayed in like the same space, whether it's like we've you've come to my house, I've gone to your house, we've been in a hotel together. And it's like almost every night you're like, oh my gosh, I had this crazy dream or I had this wild dream. And like you're telling me about it. I'm like, I don't, did I dream? Like I don't remember. Like what what happened? So like all of us dream, but for some reason, some of us like can really hold on to those details and and um uh bring them to their consciousness.

SPEAKER_00 44:31

Yeah. So I really wanted to know the answer to this. And as we um explored this, um, here are some scientific reasons why some people can uh recall their dreams more frequently or more fully than others. Um sometimes the folks that are remembering their dreams more often are waking during REM sleep. So if you get woken up during REM when you are dreaming and you're like, well, you were awake very fast, you like you may have that top of mind. Um it's like out the file is out and in your hands.

SPEAKER_03 45:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 45:09

And hasn't been a chance to be put away yet. Um if you are paying attention to your dreams. So just like we've talked about this phenomena, I can't, it's got a name, I can't remember what it is, um, a scientific name, but like when you're buying a red car and suddenly you notice all the red cars. Do you remember the scientific name for that?

SPEAKER_02 45:26

I don't remember the scientific name.

SPEAKER_00 45:28

Remember it either. Um, but you know, we it's it's like if you're paying attention um to you want to know what it is that you're dreaming about, then you might be more likely to actively remember because you've told your brain as you go to sleep, hey, remember this. And your brain's like, okay, fine. Um fine.

SPEAKER_02 45:48

That's exactly what it sounds like.

SPEAKER_00 45:52

Um your sweet sleep quality impacts your dreams, but um kind of in the opposite way than I would have thought. So if you um are a really sound sleeper, you sleep really well, your sleep score on all of those like rings and watches and you know, whatever is really high, then you probably are less likely to remember your dreams because your your brain is like in all of the places that it's supposed to be. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 46:20

Um It's going through the process of the ups and downs. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 46:24

If you're not a great sleeper, um, maybe you do a lot of toss and turning, maybe you um like have these little micro wakeups that you don't actually become fully conscious for, but you're crossing that kind of and they can just last for a few seconds so you don't remember them. Um, but your brain is like creating this this memory storage when that's happening.

SPEAKER_02 46:48

So that's really I think that's fascinating because I am that I am that person. And I do remember some of my dreams, but like not nearly as many as I think you do. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 47:00

Um, well, I mean, maybe I check more of these boxes than just one.

SPEAKER_02 47:07

Overachiever.

SPEAKER_00 47:08

Is that a shop? Three much. Um, you're you can have these individual brain differences, like people who are more curious, are uh have a high imagination, um, openness to new experiences, uh, tend to daydream. Um, like interesting. I would check off three of those four. Um, and then the fourth one, openness to new experiences. I would say I desire to be open to new experiences.

SPEAKER_02 47:40

I just want to know what they are before they happen.

SPEAKER_00 47:42

It's just the anxiety that sort of gets in the way. Um in Dreamland, I guess you don't have to worry about that as much.

SPEAKER_02 47:48

But uh Well, that is like softly suspended.

SPEAKER_00 47:53

Yeah. Um so um uh, but that that if if those are key parts of your um, you know, your personality and like how your brain is built, um, then you are more likely to remember your dreams. Um stress, it stress can actually go both ways. Um, and this all has to do with sleep quality. So in a fragmented sleep that depletes memory, if you're stressed out and you're sleeping in a way that's like really fitful, but you're like so exhausted and tired. Um, we talked about in last week's episode how when you're too tired, like you can't recall things as well. So that's why you don't do an overnight cram for a test. Um you'll you'll do worse. Um or if you have this constant wakefulness, but you're, you know, going back to sleep and you're kind of, you know, but stress is kind of having you not sleep as soundly, you get this micro wakefulness, if you will, which increases your recall, um, which is really interesting.

SPEAKER_02 48:58

It's so interesting that stress in like we I think when people hear the word stress, like it's mainly this idea of like negative things, right? Like I'm I'm I know that I immediately like attach it to a negative. But there is good positive stress, like good positive stress. There are there are positives to stress.

SPEAKER_00 49:19

I think in the context of this, though, we're talking about the negative kind of stress. I feel like we need two, I feel like we need two words for it. Like there is that level of stress that propels you into motion to do things which are good for yourself. But I think in our culture here in America and today's world, mostly we just we're we're overcrammed with stress because of the way that we live our lifestyles.

SPEAKER_02 49:46

Yeah. I just uh I the point I was making is like the duality of stress in so many different facets of our lives. Like it is the fact that it's still showing up while we're trying to sleep is still a still there.

SPEAKER_00 49:59

Yes, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 50:00

Still there. So like the big thing here is people who frequently remember their dreams appear to show like a greater activity in the brain regions involved in like the um attention and processing of external information. So even during um sleep and wakefulness, like our our brains are still operating and moving and it is it is attaching and and recalling. Um so we're more likely to notice and store dreams before they are able to fade from those memories.

SPEAKER_00 50:33

So what about nightmares? Speaking of stress, like what about nightmares? There was a Harvard medical school study on this, right? Yeah. On nightmares. Tell us about that.

SPEAKER_02 50:43

So it suggests that individuals who are under the chronic stress that you speak of, um, or maybe people with known anxiety disorders or PTSD often have more frequent or even more intense nightmares because our brain's fear processing circuits are like more reactive or they're not like truly being able, it's not like they fully um dial down. If you I don't want to say turned off. I think it's a difference between like it being turned up and turned down. And if you are dealing with these types of things, your um that um stress circuit, fear processing circuit is already dialed up a little bit more. Um, so another way to think about this is when we're having a nightmare, the emotional part of our brain is the one with the microphone. It's the one that's just super loud and it's it's coming through, it's cutting through all of the noise, while the rational part of our brain has really stepped out of the room. And we we talked about like that's why, you know, we can dream that our pets are talking to us or that we are, you know, we climbed Mount Everest and I can I get breathed trying to walk up a hill. Like it's those things.

SPEAKER_00 51:52

Yeah. So like in the daytime, maybe your um logical part of your brain is just constantly counteracting those those things that are ever present, um, bothering you from a stress or a fear standpoint. And then when you go to sleep, that logical part of your brain takes a little bit of a break, and your your like like imagination sort of carries away with itself.

SPEAKER_02 52:18

There is some recent um studies though that are suggesting that um that nightmares may arise not only because of our fear circuits being more dialed up while we're sleeping, but also because our brain system for calming us and integrating those emotions is also less active. And so what's interesting is it's it's kind of showing the duality of like when when the things are turned up and turned down, like the knobs have gotten mixed up.

SPEAKER_00 52:49

Well, this makes sense to me because if I think about in my waking time, how do I calm myself down from anxiety or fear? It's with logic. So um I'm afraid of the spider crawling on the roof of the car as you and I are driving down the highway.

SPEAKER_02 53:11

In on a bridge, more specifically than go.

SPEAKER_00 53:14

Yes. Um, my amygdala says, get out of the car, Jen. Um but I'm um, you know, there's a rational part of me that then begins to kick in. And okay, like, is that spider what's the likelihood? What's the percentage likelihood that that spider's gonna come down, land on you, and bite you? It is a possibility. What's the percentage likelihood that that's gonna happen? And um, as long as I can like rationalize whatever it is that I am afraid of away, um, then I can keep it at bay. But at night, um the brain system for calming and integrating these emotions, i.e., my rational self, is asleep. It's asleep. So my nightmares get real crazy.

SPEAKER_02 54:01

Which is also why, like, you can wake up like sweating or with a higher heart rate, because you that part that would try to calm you is more in that sus suspended state. And um, so you're you're waking up because like um we talk about falling asleep. It's like you're being pulled up, like it's just a holy smokes, what was happening? And I know I've had many of those.

SPEAKER_00 54:26

I will say, um, I will say a couple of things about nightmares. Um from my own experience, if you're having nightmares um consistently about things, there's typically probably something going on there, an emotion that you um may need to like pay attention to and work through. So if you go back to like Jung or Freud or you know, whatever that might be, like you know, you are supposed to like be able to sleep peacefully. And if nightmares are keeping you from being able to do that, you're probably stuck trying to process something and and you need to like in order to return yourself to a good place, you probably need to think about that, or you need to think about what you're taking in as your brain is processing all of these things. And are you like setting yourself up for success? So um, you know, I don't I don't watch a certain genre of movies anymore because my curiosity is way too high. And so I can't let go of, you know, what what could happen, what might happen. Um, and I just keep applying it to like my life and sort of overrelating to it, and then it shows up in my dreams and like the I just my brain doesn't need those kinds of things to I have a very active imagination. It does not need those kinds of things to be um spitting stories about because it will it will create a pretty scary. I could probably write some pretty terrible stories, but I I don't want to because I don't want to read them.

SPEAKER_02 56:04

And I do think it's important to also clarify here, um, there is a difference between nightmares and night terrors. And so um I did we did not like pull information in for night terrors because it's your brain actually is not as asleep as what it should be. Um and so uh it's it's not truly in in that state of rest. Sleeping, yeah. Correct. And so there is a difference there, and in those cases, it is recommended that you try and process those things because there may be other things that are happening that are not allowing you to get the level of rest and sleep that you need.

SPEAKER_00 56:43

Yeah, yeah. And then you become less rational when you don't sleep enough and it just becomes I mean, I've experienced both um kinds of um situations where I had um, you know, just a lot of nightmares and I wasn't resting well, and then it was like this whole cycle of not resting well, and um, and and it was really just being more protective about the things that I allow into my space. Maybe they're triggering things that I need to deal with that I hadn't, you know, wasn't in a place to do that, or maybe it was just like I'm if if you read like or watch things that are scary and you have an active imagination and you are curious, that's what you're gonna think about. Um, and so uh I think there's that. And then, you know, there's also been some things that like have just really bothered me, but I was unwilling to address. And um, I needed to go down that path of addressing those things so I could put them, you know, sort of to rest. And so I would say, um, you know, if you are somebody that is struggling with nightmares, like it that would be something to consider. And while we are not um, you know, therapists or licensed professionals, uh, we certainly participate um in that practice uh as uh as patients and um and have benefited um, you know, from that.

SPEAKER_02 58:05

So absolutely. Okay. So I want to bring up this saying that you used in last week's episode, this idea of let's just sleep on it.

SPEAKER_03 58:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 58:15

Um, as a as a opportunity for us to think through issues, problems. Um, so can dreams actually solve problems? And the neuroscience actually says yes. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 58:29

Jen's experience says yes.

SPEAKER_02 58:31

Yeah. My lived experience says yes. Yeah. So we discussed last week this this idea of like REM sleep encourages these unusual associ association abilities. So between ideas that might not connect during our focused hours. So like when we're in the middle of it, when we're trying to get stuff done, um, and and like we're we're trying to be purposeful, that logical thinking for some reason can be a barrier to our ability to try and get to a state of creative problem solving. So I know what pe what what you are likely thinking now is okay, well, what are some examples of these things? Like how has this actually shown up in ways that many of us could have experienced if we haven't experienced it ourselves? So um uh surprisingly, uh Sir Paul McCartney reportedly dreamed up the melody for the Beatles song yesterday. And he he was like so concerned about actually recording the song and actually putting it out there because he thought like he he had to have heard it somewhere for it to have like shown up in in a dream. Um so there was some apprehension, supposedly, this is the how the story goes, of actually releasing the song because he's like, I I I just woke up and the melody was in was in my head. Um but I had to have heard it someplace, but apparently not so much.

SPEAKER_00 59:56

Interesting. Um that's really interesting.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:00

Isn't it? Yeah. I mean, I don't I don't think I I mean I definitely wake up with like thinking about a song, but I don't think I've ever like made up a song in Nicely.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:11

I don't know. Something to think about. Yeah, that is something to think about because you're very musically like oriented.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:17

Correct. Well I like listening to music. You're not a like a creator, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:21

But um what uh of music, but you are creative, and so I wonder in those areas that you do tend to lean into creatively. I wonder if Ace makes up like cookie recipes in his sleep.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:35

Oh, that's interesting.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:36

Yeah, we're gonna have to like do you have one of those projectors that lets you see people's dreams? Is that a thing? Is that real?

SPEAKER_02 1:00:42

I don't think we want to see that. I don't think that would be good for anyone.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:46

I want to see my own dreams, the ones I don't remember. Maybe I don't. And my therapist says it's like um probably like you're you came in and are putting away groceries. It's like really mundane, boring stuff.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:59

But I mean, I I think that is a very good possibility because it's like the more vivid the dreams are is the more likely that you're holding on to that.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:08

What if I had some great way to put away the groceries? It was like way more efficient. And if I just watched my dreams, I would know about it.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:14

Well, so it's so funny that you use that as an example because there was a German chemist. His name is Frederick August, I think it's Kekule. Kikule? Kekule. But he actually cracked the structure of the benzene molecule through a dream. Like he uh and it was hard like for him to even like accept this as a real thing, but he was dreaming about a snake eating its tail, and um the benzene um molecule has a ring like structure. So it was interesting, like that's how he he was trying to like figure this out for months, if not years, and then it like came to him in a dream in a very like a snake eating its tail, like how far apart yet you're able your your brain is able to connect those things.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:06

Yeah, I mean, absolutely. I there, you know that I was working on um uh creating some reporting at a place that we used to work where it was like this very complex structure of an organization, but like just getting an accurate headcount report with everybody placed in the right places was just really, really hard. And it literally was taking the people doing it more than three days to to run the report each month. It's crazy. Um and um, so here I was like trying to get something to work and it wasn't working as I was trying to build it out and you know, like automate this and make it a report you could just pull. And I couldn't solve the problem and I spent days on it, and I like, while I have the capacity to do this kind of work, it is not what I enjoy doing.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:54

And so like, it's not what fills your cup.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:57

It does not fill my cup. Um, and so um here I was like working on this and I was dreaming about it every night, and I had this dream that I woke up from and I was like, that's the answer. And I went into work and I applied it and it fixed everything. See, our dreams can do it. Our dreams can do it. Finally, I could like move on in life from that moment of being stuck and trying to make that report work.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:26

It's so true. Like it's just it's like that logical brain of ours just gets in the way. And it's whenever we're able to suspend it and we're able to move more freely. Exactly. And so that's why a lot of like artists, scientists, creators have been able to say, like, I've gained insights or I had a dream about this and I wanted to pull it into reality. Like to me, that's just such a beautiful demonstration of how our dreams help us and how making sure that you're getting enough sleep to allow your brain to go through those cleaning processes and those connection opportunities. Like, give yourself that. Make sure you're getting enough sleep.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:08

Yeah. So let's talk about some myths about dreams, because there's a lot of myths out there. Um this is really funny because we both brought a list of myths to bust, and they're the same, they're the same ones. So I bet they're ones that you guys, you know, wonder about too. Um, so the universal meaning for dreams about teeth falling out, is that like real or is that not real?

SPEAKER_02 1:04:34

There's actually no evidence of any real meaning to this um dream. And again, if you think about it in the terms of our brains are processing whatever it is we have gone through, what that could mean to each of us is it could be something very different.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:54

If you're just dying to know what is the universal meaning of teeth falling out in your dream, because while it says it's universal, I don't think everybody knows what that is. Supposedly, allegedly, it's about a loss of control, a personal transition, or a physical reaction to sleep tension. Um that it as you're saying, that myth is busted.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:19

Correct. No, no real scientifical proof um that there is really any meaning to that. Um, the next one, which I found very fascinating, because I hadn't really thought about this, is like dreaming in black and white versus in color. And so that got me thinking, like, well, how do I dream? I honestly don't know. I can't remember.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:39

Why dream in full color, like a movie? Um yeah, the basically the the research says that this has more to do with a person's age and media exposure. Like if you grew up without color movies and TVs, then you're but you watch black and white movies and TVs, then you're more likely to Like dream in black and white because that's something you can relate to seeing something play out on a screen. Um it's very interesting.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:10

Um the idea that we only dream in short bursts.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:14

Scientifically false. Um tell us. And this is because like our REM periods become longer throughout the night. So as you go through those cycles, as we talked about last week, it's 60 to 90 minutes each cycle. And the whenever you are falling to sleep, that may take you a little bit longer to get through those light sleep stages. But once you are at a place of rest, you move through those light sleep stages a little faster. And so you have the opportunity to spend more time in that REM and deep sleep spaces.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:47

That's so interesting. Um also a myth when people tell you they don't dream. Very unlikely. There is there is some evidence that it is rare, but sometimes people can have the this disconnection um in their brain that you know they really don't dream, but that is extremely rare. And um most people actually dream, they just don't remember it. Um eating cheese causes weird dreams or any other kind of food.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:20

Um I find this one funny because after you tell me like about one of your crazy dreams, I'm like, what did you eat before you went to bed? Um it actually turns out that there is surprisingly weak evidence that this actually influences anything.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:35

I mean, I suppose if you're like eating something that upsets your stomach like close to before bed, and then you can't you you're not like sleeping well, then your dreams may be like more like uh disrupted or like stressful. It may impact your emotional state, maybe. But that's a pretty like it's a pretty tenuous connection there.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:02

I don't know. I just found it funny because I'm like, oh my gosh, I ask Jen that question all the time. I should stop asking that question. I mean, I doubt I would.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:10

I like cheese, so um, I'm I also remember I like cheese and I remember my my dreams, so obviously it's connected. Obviously.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:18

It's the cheese for sure. Yeah, but there's some people who like if you eat ice cream, it'll make you have these types of dreams. If you have popcorn, it's that there's no scene.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:27

In the in the movie White Christmas, um there's a scene where uh one of the characters is saying, Um, oh, we'll have a bedtime snack, and yeah, what kind of what do you want to dream about? And I'll tell you which kind of sandwich to eat. Like that's not real.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:43

Geez, could you imagine though if it was you could like dial up a dream? That would be nice.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:50

I mean, I don't know. Is that what people do with hallucinogenics? I'm not sure.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:54

I'd I have never experienced that. So uh we'll put it out there.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:58

If you are an individual, we're not we're not putting that out there. Um so dream dictionaries or interpreting texts. Are these like, is this like real? Um, if you go to like a uh, you know, the internet and say, if I dream about this, what does this mean? Um is are those accurate?

SPEAKER_02 1:09:17

So they are likely very entertaining and can be a great way to have a lively discussion um with friends and family, but there's no real scientific proof of the accuracy of these interpretations.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:32

Okay, Chris. Here's where I'm at. I am constantly dreaming that I am back in school of some fashion, high school, college, some fashion of school. I had a class that I just haven't gone to for the entire semester. And it is time to take a test. I can't get into my locker. I don't know what day or time I'm supposed to show up to the class, and I'm gonna fail if I don't pass this. But I can't remember the code for my locker, I can't get to my schedule, which is in my locker, and um, I've never been to the class and it's the end of the semester. Um, what am I are you telling me that I I'm not gonna find out what it is that that means?

SPEAKER_02 1:10:19

Correct. That's an accurate statement. There's no text that's going to decode all of that. However, there's some like themes there of maybe some anxiety, maybe some stress, maybe some um, you know, for you feel like you're forgetting a very important part of something. Like, you know, if I'm going off the top of my head.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:40

It might be a good, a good therapy list if it keeps coming back.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:43

Well, so that's what I was gonna say is like I think um, and luckily I have friends who are like willing to go on these journeys with me. And so like talking about your dreams with your close friends and people who know you and the things that are going on in your life, they may be able to help like make some of those connections and and talk through some of those things. Um, because again, our dreams are those like we are inter it's our brains sorting and interpreting and getting everything organized. And so to do it with people that you trust and who understand what you're going through, they may be able to offer some insights that, you know, for whatever reason you're not able to quite pull together.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:21

But the fact that um, you know, I woke up angry at my husband for um the lawnmower, buying a new lawnmower, um not returning the lawnmower, I don't know, whatever that was about, probably meaningless. Probably.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:37

Sometimes dreams are just dreams. Sometimes dreams are just dreams.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:42

That's a new shirt.

unknown 1:11:44

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:44

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:45

Um speaking of shirts, um, you know, we do have some pretty cool shirts uh on our merch um on our merch site. So check it out. Um you can find it at Chris and Jenitm.com. But with all of that, um w dreams maybe just aren't secret messages. And um, you know, it's a there's a multiverse out there while you're sleeping. Um but science hasn't exactly proven wrong that you're not like hopping into another timeline. So I'm just saying it's could be a possibility.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:21

Maybe. And so just some things as you're going through the next week. Um, you know, before you really pull out your phone or you know, move into this fully awake state, maybe keep a piece of paper, a journal, if you will, and write down like the first things that you remember from your dreams, you know, and it can be like one word, it can be a sentence. Um it doesn't have to be anything super robust, but it may help you begin to notice reoccurring themes of your dreams, um, maybe the emotions that you are processing or waking up feeling, um, creative ideas, as we talked about, those creative connections. Um, and then maybe your brain just keeps revisiting certain things and and being able to like look into that and and understand that, maybe that'll help you process and move on from that.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:10

Give you some more peaceful sleep at night. Absolutely. Well, we would love for you to share with us um, you know, what are your dreams like? What's what do you think about dreaming? What do you know? What have you learned along the journey of life? Um, we'd love to hear from you. Depending on what platform you're listening on, you can leave us a comment or reach out to us via email at connect at Chris and GenITM.com, or you can text us at 940-278-8129.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:36

And don't forget to follow us on all our social media platforms. You can find us on YouTube, Instagram, and Facebook as Chris and JenITM. The ITM stands for in the morning. Um, so please feel free to like, follow, subscribe, comment, share, do all the things there. Um, like we said before, we are building a community and we want you to be part of the conversation. So that's a great place to jump in at.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:59

Yes. And until next time, be kind to yourself, to one another, and make it a great week. Sweet dreams, everyone.